My last post was regarding a question I received on whether I thought people were good. Once I wrote I received feedback that I was not really expecting. It made me realize there is a lot of confusion on this topic and that one could go on and on discussing one pandora box after another. Then I got an amusing thought. God has a pattern with me. He really does. He brings up people or circumstances in my life that really get me digging in his truths again. It's actually quite loving of him because I get (1) reminded of the delight of what He has shown me through the years and (2) broadened in my continued understand of his character and there is no greater delight. In fact this morning I was thinking of posting on my facebook status (though I never got around to it) that:
One of the most loving things God can do is remind you that you have not quite learned enough yet about Him.
The amazing thing is that he has an eternity for us to crave more and more of Him and we will never run out of being delighted in learning his character. Now think about that for a few seconds and hear your brain explode.
Anyway, back to the response. I'm going to restate it (and I hope the person does not mind) because it is very well thought out and in many cases very true:
"...it seems if we can't agree on the basic principle that man is sinful and that that sin is complete and there is no good that comes from man or the world at all. The only good anyone ever experiences comes from the Holy Spirit. Whether He is in them or someone around them. Or whether He causes something to come about. It is never from anything else but Him. That principle stems from why God requires us to come to Him in the first place. You can't do ANYTHING good without Him. Everything you do without Him is evil whether you want it to be or not because you are unable to do good at all. Once a person realizes this, they understand they NEED God to take control. Because God is the only way to do anything good at all. And even when you have the Holy Spirit in you, it's a far cry from what Jesus did as good. We are so decrepit and broken and lost that there is no possibility, not even remotely that we can bring about anything good on our own."
There was another comment that I will get to on a later post because it dives into yet another topic all together.
There is a lot of good thought here. However, before I dive into responding to it (and as I typed it I was reminded of why I had to sit down to answer and why I believe this post will be long indeed) I'd like to make one thing clear regarding my last post on goodness:
It was not the goodness that leads to salvation. It does not even touch on salvation yet. It is just a reflection on the state of man.
The reason I was not expecting the response is because I thought that was obvious. Then I realized that some people have never really gone through these though processes so they may have lumped these together. In order to address this I will go through the response bit by bit.
"..it seems if we can't agree on the basic principle that man is sinful :"
I do agree with that point. Goodness was first, then sin came upon humanity. Yes, man is sinful. The fact that man can reflect good (originated in God) is merely an element of his being made in the image of God. When we speak of the "image of God" we mean like him not just in appearance but in characteristics. God is good, he is just, he is creator, he is personable, relation driven etc. We are reflections of those things. Man can be sinful and still have a sense of justice, a passion for it. That is because we are made in His image. The creation is scared and marred, not erased all together It groans for restoration but it is not obliterated. God's glory shines still in creation and even in the character of man itself. This is true even of the unsaved, which leads to the next point....
"... sin is complete and there is no good that comes from man or the world at all."
This is partially answered in my answer above but there is more. Though man is in a state of sin, and the creation is under the curse, there is still good. If there was not, we would truly be in hell all ready. As Randy says: "Earth is the closest that believers will get to hell, and it is the closest non believers will get to heaven". I always find that a sobering thought. This is what I mean when I say even Christians don't realize sometimes how much good is reflected on earth and in people even now. God's sovereign will holds back evil in so many ways even though we pretty much feel it is rampant. There is good that comes from man, for He is still made in the image of his creator. Is this good able to save him? No. Yet, one cannot deny that tons of people who don't give a hoot about the saving blood of Christ, have done good things. Now, that good is still flowing from God himself and this is where I think this person in conversation with me does not realize that we actually agree. This will become more evident as I respond more.
"The only good anyone ever experiences comes from the Holy Spirit."
This is true and yet it is not. It is true in the sense that "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God". Jesus is the Word, and he was there at the moment of creation. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of Christ and the bible says that His very spirit hovered over the waters. His spirit is the fingerprint of himself in man and in creation. All good in humanity and on earth has it's origion in God. HOWEVER, many who do good do not have the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ dwelling and working in them. They may benefit from the blessings of a good God creating them, but that does not mean that Christ is alive in them. The good that God bestows on man in creation is really a given. We are fearfully and wonderfully made etc. The good that we do is only because of His original goodness alive in our reflective image of Him. YET, (and this is where the difference lies) it is not a good that saves. It is a given, it's a freebie to speak casually. It is not a ticket into heaven, and it is not a cleansing from sin. It is a benefit of creation before God leaves it entirely and his Spirit is departed from sinful man forever. That is where I think this individual needs to see the difference in these types of goodness. This goodness is what God calls "filthy rags" when it comes to getting us reunited with God. Compared to his righteousness, it is nothing and quite frankly, it is both used for his purposes and even at times stemming from our own desire to feel great about ourselves, but that is another blog post all together.
"Whether He is in them or someone around them."
Now, there is a lot of potential problem in that comment. Salvation does not work like a good disease. It does not rub off on other people. However, I do understand what is meant by this. The fact though is that God's spirit is in the world still, moving and working and man is benefiting from it's presence as I've all ready stated. This statement actually highlights the difference in these two "goods". If it were the goodness of salvation, it could not "rub off" on another, every man is held accountable for his own response or lack there of to Christ and His work. If it is meant in the goodness that is in creation and reflected as image bearers, then yes, it is in others on many different levels.
" Or whether He causes something to come about. It is never from anything else but Him. "
Not much to say here, I agree with that. I have all ready stated that even the basic goodness of God's character reflected in creation and humanity has it's source in God alone.
"That principle stems from why God requires us to come to Him in the first place."
Not necessarily. God does not require us to come to Him so we can do good. He requires it so that our sin may be removed by the work of His son, Jesus Christ. So that we can fellowship and have a relationship once again with the Father (which will produce good works out of a responding love not just as a reflection of the creator alone). Yet, this thought and response will be completed as I move to the next line:
"You can't do ANYTHING good without Him."
Ah, here is where they split again into a true yet not true statement. Can the unsaved do good things? Yes. Though even they are unaware that their good comes from the image of their creator. They also may fail to realize that their good is being performed out of selfish motives (again...another post). Is there good however of any value to God? No, not toward salvation and certainly not allowing relationship with God. It is however accomplishing the purposes of His will on the earth. So, perhaps a better way to so say this (and feel free anyone with more thoughts to chime in on comments) is that we can do nothing good to help our, or bring about our salvation. "For without me, you can do nothing"
"Everything you do without Him is evil whether you want it to be or not because you are unable to do good at all."
Once again we are saying the same thing though it appears different. The difference is in the fact that both the saved and the unsaved reflect the good of their creator. Both bring glory to God because he orchestrates both. He uses unsaved people to accomplish His purposes in the story of humanity. The source of anything good them do is STILL HIMSELF. Yet, they may not have accepted His gift of salvation. The fact is, nothing can really be done without God being as the author of it all. This is the great mystery of the sovereignty of God through out all the good and bad in the story of man. SOOOO many more posts on that could be written and I highly suggest anyone curious about the topic read Randy Alcorn's "If God Is Good" book. It helped me so much.
So, if a man who does not accept the gospel of Christ, repent and be saved, throws himself in front of a bus to save another man is that evil of him? Is he doing evil? No he is doing good because he reflects the image of his creator. Is he saved, sadly no. The unsaved are certainly able to do good, again, they just don't realize the source of their goodness.
"Once a person realizes this, they understand they NEED God to take control."
Yes, this is true in the salvation sense. Yet more specifically what people need to realize is that the good they do does not save them. The fact that most people do not realize this about their own goodness is what keeps them from realizing they need God. In fact, this somewhat proves my point. The very fact that people are capable of good makes them think they don't need God. They just hope their scales tip toward good in the end. It's not that the good they did was in fact evil (though in some cases it may very well be like giving to charity for the sake of pride or so on) it's that their good is not good enough to save their souls. Only Christ's work can do that and that is what they need to realize. Most people are not wanting God so that they can perform more good. They do not look at him and say "oh, I need you to take control so I can do better" if they do they are coming to God for the wrong reason anyway. If this were true, Christians would be producing nothing but good works also and we all know that isn't true. (I apologize for the real rabbit trail nature of this topic and my writing because the fact is, one thought leads right into one million others, all valid but making it so hard to stay on point.)
" Because God is the only way to do anything good at all."
If by this you mean that all good comes from God, then yes, absolutely Yet God himself calls the goodness of man filthy rags when compared ( and noting that there is a comparison is important because we like to compare it to pure evil and call it good, God compares it to His perfect righteousness) to Himself. Again, it's goodness reflective of Him, but not producing salvation. Anything more would be redundant here.
"And even when you have the Holy Spirit in you, it's a far cry from what Jesus did as good."
When you have the Holy Spirit in you, it IS what Jesus is doing as good. You are however, still in the sinful flesh, walking in a sinful world. Jesus was sinless, we are not sinless. We are saved from our sin, but we are not without sin and opportunity to sin. The bible does however state that a true believer will be unable to continue on and on in a state of sin because of the Holy Spirit. That span of time may however vary. Oh, boy, streaming into another topic again.
" We are so decrepit and broken and lost that there is no possibility, not even remotely that we can bring about anything good on our own."
It's very true, we are decrepit and broken. However we are able to produce good in the world. That is self evident. This good does not save us though so we can do nothing to save us. Also again, even the good we do outside of salvation is sourced in God and used by Him for his purposes.
So, I thought they were some very good thoughts. It's honestly a real brain bender, the whole thing is. We have to remember that if the world was void of the goodness of God in creation and even in humanity, this would be hell. It will be that way one day very sadly. In fact, understanding even remotely what removing the Spirit of God from the earth and humanity would be like is in when we finally start to get what hell really will be. Alcorn talks a lot about this in his book as well. So, though we reap and reflect from His goodness, it is not the goodness that is enough to save us. Christ is the only good that is good enough.
I hope that makes sense and I hope it helps. The fact is, God says man's good does not please him. This makes sense when we realize that our goodness is just a reflection of Himself in us. Why should he be impressed with something coming from him reflecting back to him? That takes nothing from us. What he wants is for us to choose to trust the work of His son, when we didn't have to. It comes back to not being "Stepford Wives". We will spontaneously be good because we are made in the image of God. We will sin because we are under the curse of the fall. These come as a given. What is not a given is the choice we will make regarding the work of the Son.
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